Bacha Khan;s controversial interview to Indian journalist in 1980
Sharing at his120th birthday
It was published in India Today at 31 March 1980, interviewed by an Indian (Hyderabadi) Journalist Haroon Saddique at Jalalabad where Bacha Khan was in self exile. As he praised presence of Russian Army in Afghanistan and criticised Hafeezullah Ameen so this interview was taken after 27 December 1979 (death of Ameen) and published in 31March next year. At that time Marshalla of Zia was in full swing in Pakistan and PPP & left leaders & workers were either in jails or compelled to go abroad yet Bacha was in contact with Zia who had just murdered Z A Bhutto few months back and running Islamic fundamentalist agenda. In Pakistan he was a traitor and Russian cum Indian agent but Zia had given passport to him yet Russians did not allow him to visit Moscow for treatment. In retrospective this interview is interesting and if you have read Untold Story , a book by NAP Sindh president in 1970s, Azizullah Advocate, Benazir Bhutto first book Foreign policy perspective, Jumma Khan book along with biography of Mir Ghous Baksh Bazinjo and few interviews published in AwamiJumhori Forum, you can understand what were the anxieties in post 16 December 1971 Pakistan and what stands numerous power players had taken during and after Bhutto period.
Note: I have inserted some questions in red in the text. one should try to get complete interview too.
Link of the Interview
Everything in Afghanistan is done in the name of religion: Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan
The legend still lives, but it is rapidly fading, and so is the man. The frail and wasted body, however, still holds traces of the fierce independence that gave Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan, 91, the title of the "Frontier Gandhi.
Abdul Gaffar Khan: Favouring the Russian presence
Since Ayub Khan's dictatorship (Oct 1958) he was under custody yet in 1982 Amnesty International had declared him prisoner of consciousness and in 1964 Ayub had allowed '' the traitor'' to go to London for treatment.
Q. There's concern among your admirers, and others as well, about your health and whether or not you're receiving proper medical attention?
A. The Taraki government had said it would send me to Russia. But they said the Russians wanted me to first get a Pakistani passport. I applied at the Pakistani embassy in Kabul and also wrote a letter to General Zia. He responded by saying he was planning to go to Russia himself and said: "Why don't you come along with me?" But I said I would go later and by myself.
So Bacha himself accepted the contact with Zia, the dictator.A. The Taraki government had said it would send me to Russia. But they said the Russians wanted me to first get a Pakistani passport. I applied at the Pakistani embassy in Kabul and also wrote a letter to General Zia. He responded by saying he was planning to go to Russia himself and said: "Why don't you come along with me?" But I said I would go later and by myself.
Q. Did you get your passport?
A. The Pakistanis said the Russians won't give me a visa. Months went by. Then it was winter (of 1978). Later, I got an invitation from India to go there for treatment. But General Zia responded to that by saying: "Don't go to India." And he asked me to come to Pakistan instead. I said I don't want to be treated in Pakistan.
Why Russians were interested to send him to India? Interestingly at the time of partition Nehru wanted to join US block but US wanted to develop inroads in Pakistan and it was recorded by Kanji Dwarkadas, a member of Congress Working Committee who had published letters of Nehru. So by B T Ranadive revolution of Feb 1948, Russians had developed a pressure on Indian establishment to negotiate with Russian Balock and it worked and till 1952 revolutionary B T R was lost all power even within his party and India was adjusted in USSR block. As Chomsky said in his book deterring democracies that cold war was a plan war so both conflicting powers were on same page yet their acts were different. The other important thing was the time, winter of 1978. Zia was trying to hang Bhutto (murdered by court in April 4, 1979) yet Bacha was just busy in his game. It was the time when like Imran Khan, mr Wali Khan was interested in accountability of Bhutto before elections by Zia, the dictator. A. The Pakistanis said the Russians won't give me a visa. Months went by. Then it was winter (of 1978). Later, I got an invitation from India to go there for treatment. But General Zia responded to that by saying: "Don't go to India." And he asked me to come to Pakistan instead. I said I don't want to be treated in Pakistan.
Q. Then what happened?
A. There was a proposal that I go to Czechoslovakia. A minister of the Taraki government said I could go wherever I wanted. I said I would prefer to go to Russia and I asked the Pakistani Government again for a passport. They didn't want to give it at first. But then they did.
So State of Pakistan under Gen Zia had given passport to a traitor... you can judge both, establishment & revolutionary well. If some Dutana or Bhugtti or Jatoi or khan abdul Qyum Khan did it we knew it often happened in power game but Bacha, the frontier gandhi was doing that. A. There was a proposal that I go to Czechoslovakia. A minister of the Taraki government said I could go wherever I wanted. I said I would prefer to go to Russia and I asked the Pakistani Government again for a passport. They didn't want to give it at first. But then they did.
Q. Why didn't you get to go to the Soviet Union then?
A. Because they didn't want me to come there. An Afghan cabinet minister told me that the Russians had said: "We don't want to treat him because he's an old man. If he were to die on our soil, the Pakhtoons would get angry and say, 'Russia has killed our leader.'" That's why the Russians weren't giving me a visa.
lame excuses by Russians A. Because they didn't want me to come there. An Afghan cabinet minister told me that the Russians had said: "We don't want to treat him because he's an old man. If he were to die on our soil, the Pakhtoons would get angry and say, 'Russia has killed our leader.'" That's why the Russians weren't giving me a visa.
Q. What was your reaction to this?
A. I said to them that the Pakhtoons won't get angry even if I died in Russia because everyone has to die sometime somewhere. But the Pakhtoons do get angry when their khidmatgaar (servant) does not get proper medical attention.
A. I said to them that the Pakhtoons won't get angry even if I died in Russia because everyone has to die sometime somewhere. But the Pakhtoons do get angry when their khidmatgaar (servant) does not get proper medical attention.
By this time (September 1979), Taraki was overthrown and killed by Amin. I told his government I wanted to go to India and I requested the Indian consul here in Jalalabad to ask the Indian ambassador in Kabul to arrange for my trip.
So he re enforced his connections with India via Jallabad consulate.
Then a doctor (Dr Sankaran) from India came here to see me in December 1979. So did the Indian ambassador. They said they would send doctors and a machine for my treatment here. That was because the government of Amin had decided that I can't be taken out of the country and must be treated here.
Q. Who told you this?
A. When Amin was overthrown and killed (in December), my Afghan doctor told me about it. And the Indian consul here confirmed it.
A. When Amin was overthrown and killed (in December), my Afghan doctor told me about it. And the Indian consul here confirmed it.
Q. What do you think of the Soviet military presence in Afghanistan?
A. The new government says that Amin was, in reality, not a communist at all but an American agent; that he was planning something with the Americans. The Russians say that when there's peace in Afghanistan, they'll go. I think they will. In the meantime, Pakistan is becoming an agent of the US and Britain.
Pakistan had signed CETO SENTO in 1954 and his own brother was Chief Minister West Pakistan (in office from Oct 1955 till August 1957)A. The new government says that Amin was, in reality, not a communist at all but an American agent; that he was planning something with the Americans. The Russians say that when there's peace in Afghanistan, they'll go. I think they will. In the meantime, Pakistan is becoming an agent of the US and Britain.
Q. It was first reported that you had endorsed the Soviet military presence here, Then it was said that you had done nothing of the kind.
A. The Russians have done a favour to the Afghans by getting rid of the cruel and treacherous Amin. I'm greateful to them for having rid the Afghans of that murderer.
A. The Russians have done a favour to the Afghans by getting rid of the cruel and treacherous Amin. I'm greateful to them for having rid the Afghans of that murderer.
There's too much American and British propaganda against the Russian presence here. But I can tell you that the day Amin was overthrown, people celebrated and said: "Today is Id."
Celebrating Russian military intervention in Afghanistan.
Q. Now most ordinary Afghans seem worried about what they say is a direct threat to their religion. And they're not buying Karmals repeated assurances of religious freedom under his Marxist rule.
A. You see, everything in Afghanistan is done in the name of religion. But all this is political religion, not the religion of Islam and Allah and (the Prophet) Mohammed. Our Afghan brethren, unfortunately, are illiterate. Communism, for example, has nothing to do with religion; it has to do with the stomach. The Russians know this, of course. But even their call to the Afghans on the recent events has been in the name of religion.
Use of religion as card was common among all either left or right or nationalists or establishments.A. You see, everything in Afghanistan is done in the name of religion. But all this is political religion, not the religion of Islam and Allah and (the Prophet) Mohammed. Our Afghan brethren, unfortunately, are illiterate. Communism, for example, has nothing to do with religion; it has to do with the stomach. The Russians know this, of course. But even their call to the Afghans on the recent events has been in the name of religion.
Q. What about the problem of Pakhtoonisation?
A. There's no problem.
Q. You mean the idea of Greater Pakhtoonistan is dead? Or do you mean that the concept does exist but that it's not causing any problems?
A. The idea never helped us. In fact, it was never a reality. Successive Afghan governments just exploited it for their own political ends.
An eye opening confession by the torch bearer of Pukhtoon cause yet his followers and others are still using it.A. The idea never helped us. In fact, it was never a reality. Successive Afghan governments just exploited it for their own political ends.
It was only towards the end of his regime that Daoud Khan had stopped talking about it. And Taraki in the early part of his regime also didn't mention it. So when I met him, I thanked him for not raising the issue. But later, even he raised the issue because he wanted to continue the problem for Pakistan. Our people suffered greatly because of all this.
Q. Are you settled here in Jalalabad permanently ? Or would you some day go back to Pakistan?
A. My people have, by and large, given up my idea of Adum Tashaddud (non violence). However, even if I leave siyasat (politics), siyasat won't leave me. But today's siyasat is not siyasat. It is badmashi. It has become so in Pakistan and in India.
It was a time when after imposition of emergency Congress had lost elections and Janta Party alliance was in power. So in old age he was hopeless. Badmashi was part of politics since 1920s but he mentioned India and Pakistan but did not include Afghanistan. A. My people have, by and large, given up my idea of Adum Tashaddud (non violence). However, even if I leave siyasat (politics), siyasat won't leave me. But today's siyasat is not siyasat. It is badmashi. It has become so in Pakistan and in India.
Gandhiji's concept of siyasat was to never seek personal glory and honour but to serve the people. I always tried to serve my people and God. Khuda-ee-khidmatgaar (servant of God), that's what I tried to be. But today, it's all different.
I'll live here. I'm now (for all intents and purposes) an Afghan. I'm not even permitting my son, Khan Abdul Wali Khan, political leader of Pakistan's North West Frontier Province, to visit me because he'll insist that I go with him to Pakistan. But I don't want to go.
Q. What do you think of Indira Gandhi?
A. I was very close to Jawaharlal. So I consider her to be my daughter.
A. I was very close to Jawaharlal. So I consider her to be my daughter.
Although I hate Zia by the guts for his destruction of sane society and culture in Pakistan, I have to admit that his economic policies leaning towards free enterprise and economic growth were better than Bhutto as well as Musharraf. Even better than Ayub because of creation of new wealthy classes.
ReplyDeleteThe only one who did better than him in economy have been the Nawaz Sharif govts.
G.M. Syed and Wali Khan and those persecuted and massacred in Balochistan by Bhutto regime were softer towards Zia.